Forge Father Rules Continued now with added STATS

The results are in! Well some of them are. Take a look at this lovely collection of graphs and numbers.

Disclaimer first. This is all purely numbers it cannot replace actual play test but does offer a base to work from.

Following our recent work on fixing Forge Fathers, our Chris went and got his geek on with spreadsheets and did some theoretical modelling...

Firstly lets discuss the model used.
This test has used a random number generator to model 1000 results of a Human Corp Guard Slamming a Forge Father Striker. In the test the guard gained the + 1 dice for moving into a slam.

We have modelled 5 different suggested fixes and applied them to 5 Forge Father Strikers. Each one uses the same set of dice rolls so we have a picture of what would of happened to each in each individual case.

The dice rolls are all created by using a random number between 1-6 generated by excel (=randbetween(1,6) for those that want to know.) we have modelled exploding sixes to a degree of 40 possible 6's chained together (Which is a 1/6^40 = 7.481E-32). We generate separate sets of dice rolls for "The Slam", "The Dodge/Brace" and "The Armour Saves".

The five suggested fixes that we have modelled are:

FF Normal = Current Forge Father striker (Control group)
FF Grizzled = Forge Father Striker with Grizzled
FF can Brace = Forge Father striker who can use the "Brace" slam reaction as mentioned in our previous post.
FF CFaT = Forge Father with "Cant Feel a Thing"
FF Speed 4+ = Forge Father with speed 4+


My Thoughts
Initially Speed 4+ is too good. The striker ends up winning when being slammed 28% of the time this just doesn't seem right we were trying to make them survivable not Judwan.

CFaT while it looks good stats wise, they still lose quite a bit but don't die or get injured. This needs further testing as it then brings in the problem that FF cant get up very well, and of course if they fall over they lose the ball.

Brace seems to come out as predicted it makes them less likely to get doubled 32% so hold onto the ball for longer something needs to be looked at as they are also winning 28% of the time like speed 4+

Grizzled seems to be the best fit at the moment reducing the amount of times they get taken out for 3 or more. Worryingly they end up doubling the guard the most at 18% but they have the lowest just winning 6% this is also reversed they have a low chance to only get beaten but quite a high chance of being doubled without injury.

Next
We are going to try and model the effects of giving these rules to Forge Father guards and Jacks to see what happens when they slam themselves. Particularly interested in Grizzled and CFaT (mini buzzcuts).

Then we can take the results to the tables and see how it changes actual play.

If anyone would like to generate their own results and compare them, or check that we haven't done anything wrong below is a link to a blank .xlsm doc use the buttons to generate your own results.

Forge Father Testing File

  

Please discuss.

New rule for Forge Fathers - Resolute

Forge Fathers have a problem...

Personally I think this goes without saying, but 'the Forge Fathers are unbalanced to their detriment'. I know some of you crazy monkeys will want some proof, so I'll offer you what I can:

1. According to the Dreadball Results Tracker endorsed by Jake, Forge Fathers win on average a mere 39.6% of their games.
2. At the Mantic Open Day tournament the other day, the bottom of the tournament standings was flooded by Forge Fathers players.
3. Anecdotally, of all the many many games I've played, and witnessed. Forge Fathers nearly always get pasted unless they have amazing luck Vs their opponents terrible luck. It's not just me, there's examples here, here, and even Jake himself in the comments here!

(As a side note, I know the Dreadball Results Tracker isn't perfect, there's many issues with the fairness of the sample, and the conditions of each match played, but similarly there are well over 600 games logged with the little guys, so we can use this a guide.)

Good, so I hope we've got that out of the way and can move on? Excellent.

Too true Mr. Canyon. Too True.

What exactly is the problem?

It seems to me that the main issue with Forge Fathers is their strikers. Where their guards are tough and hardy with Strength 3 and Steady, the Strikers get the advantage of neither of these. It seems that if you can maneuver one into position to score (a difficult thing to do with their speed and movements!!) they're going to get absolutely murdered by any guard in the game as the only thing they can do in defense is roll 4 dice 5+ ...

One common tactic spouted around t'interwebz is to use the Strikers as Quarter Backs to stay back under the protection of the guards, to then throw the ball to the jacks who're stood in position. Four problems with that here:

1. Jacks are not reliable catchers at the kind of distances we're talking about here.
2. Once caught, the Jack then has to turnaround/move into position to throw suffering -1 dice (also only 1 hex movemnt)
3. A Jack is significantly less reliable than a striker at scoring
4. if you're jacks are standing over the strike zones, and the Strikers are playing back field, who is supporting the Guards?

What can be done?

There are a number of ideas kicking around here and here amongst other places. I've summarised and debunked some of the solutions that are currently doing the rounds...

* Give them 4+ Speed - This would just turn the Forge Fathers into mini Corporation. Their low speed is characteristic.
* Give Strikers the ability to Slam Back - This would make Strikers silly powerful, and also make Jacks and Guards somewhat redundant.
* Take away Steady from the guards and give them all "Can't Feel a Thing" - This just turns them into bearded Z'zor...
* Give the Strikers Grizzled - Fairly decent. My only concern is that it might not have that big an effect
* Give Strikers Fend - This is a new skill idea whereby the Striker does a 3 Dice Strength X test to survive a slam with the following outcomes; result drawn - turn players to face each other, Fend Off wins - turn to face any direction you choose, or Fend Off doubles - push opposing player back one hex. My issue with this is that it gives all strikers an aggressive move - pushing player with strikers should only be for Judwan.

Which leads us nicely on to "Resolute" (the Daily Punter endorsed option)

A new skill initially for all forge father strikers and available through normal experience means to all others. (We need to look at the impact on other player types) (For warning, it is very similar to Fend I didn't know this had been discussed so all credit to the author of that as we are on very similar wave lengths)

Resolute - Any Player

This player may not be the fastest out there but they are a rock and if they put their mind to it can become an immovable object. As well as the normal options available to this player they may instead choose to "Brace" when slammed by a player in their own threat hexes.

Brace: a 3 dice Strength test (X)
*-1 per opposing player threatening the hex you are in (ignoring the slamming player, maximum -2).

Draw or Brace Wins: the players both turn to face directly at each other.

There you go. This has caused a lot of discussion and we are going to start by play testing in our group as many of these options as the community has come up with.

One thing to quickly point out here, the beauty of this ability is that there's no real need for it outside of the Forge Fathers, so it won't end up breaking some other team accidentally. That said, any thoughts or/and results please share and stay tuned here for an update on how the play testing is going.

With any luck, we may have just come up with something golden here...

Who Shot the Sherriff - The Law vs Teraton Avalanches Week 3

Thonk here with an exciting write up of last nights Outpost League match between "The Law" and "Teraton Avalanches"

The Law started things off badly with No.3 "Riot" causing little more than an angry gesture towards the Teraton defensive line up. No. 1 Sheriff decided to show him how it should be done and proceeded to injure three Teratons, two would return in a couple of rushes but one was turtle soup.

The Avalanches responded in true Angry Teleporting fashion with a Teleport and Slam into the rear of  "Fuzz" the Jack injuring him for two rushes. Their No. 3 Sprinted towards the ball with far to much velocity and instead of picking up the ball the giant turtle ended up spilling it straight at Law Striker "Pursuit" and he makes a safe catch to take hold of the ball.

"Sheriff" assisted by his "Deputy" tries a double whammy on another poor turtle but only manage to push the Guard back a hex. Meanwhile "Pursuit" takes off down the pitch with speed only to end up falling over his ting legs right under a Avalanche and in the 3 Point Zone.

Another Slam in the back of "Deputy" takes him out for two. While Turtle No. 3 goes for the ball "Pursuit" just dropped, but in his anger smashes the ball into tiny pieces causing the ball to be re launched with no time left on the rush clock.

On came "Fuzz" to help even the numbers for The Law but fails to do much damage to the Avalanches players with a weak slam. Striker "Pursuit" leaps up from prone and retreats as quick as he can from the towering guard bearing down on him. Meanwhile team mate "Long Arm" sprints for the ball and runs and throws a 2 point strike to Take the Law into the Lead.

Seeing red the Teratons slam "Long Arm" hard but showing that Forge Fathers aren't all slow, he ducks and weaves past all blows. All that ducking and weaving distracted "Long Arm" for long enough for another slam to hit him in the back which knocked him to the floor, where the dastardly Turtles stomped him all the way to the bench. Thank the Forge Fathers armour for saving his body from painting the pitch red. While all that stomping and slamming was going on, a sneaky looking Teraton Jack flung the ball and scored a 2 point strike to tie the game once again.

Then the Laws luck ran quickly out of town. Sheriff unable to muster his earlier strength failed another slam and put himself in a dangerous position with his back to a Teraton Guard and team mate "Fuzz" completely fuzzed the ball giving away the rush to the even angrier looking Avalanche's.

Then it came like a falling river of snow and ice, or an Avalanche some may say. The slam to the back came as predicted and poor "Sheriff" could do nothing as his armour was crushed with him inside and he was quickly sent to Securicorps med bay to see if they could revive him. Without Guards to hold the line the Teratons soon snuck in a 4 pointer and with only a rush to go it fell to The Laws jacks to try and get the job done. Unfortunately with the lost of their leader they fell apart fumbling the ball and preparing to defend them selves one last rush.

In the end the Teratons went for the smashing way to finish a match but the Law held tight losing no more players and grinding out a loss to 4 points. The Law haven't fluffed this badly since Police Academy 5 and that's saying something. Meanwhile The Avalanches are sat looking like they have themselves a new theme tune "I shot the Sheriff" By Bob Marley and The Wailers if they can dig it out of storage.

Medical reports from The Law camp say that unfortunately during the operation to revive him and following the trauma "Sheriff's" muscle had wasted away too much for him to support his own body weight and he passed away on the table. Rumours are now spreading of a certain "project M.U.R.P.H.Y" that Securicorp have been working on which may have found it's guinea pig cadaver.



Season 3 Lineup - Coaches Contacts

With the fixtures for the whole league now sent to coaches its high time we gave all you Dreadball fans a rundown of the teams competing for the biggest Dreadball League this side of the Trent gulf.

So in no particular order... (forum name is in brackets)

Roaring Riptides - Steel Division
Coach - Adrain Mills (AdrianMills)
Type - Corporation (Sirens)
The Riptides are a new team with a coach new to league play. We have seen how these girls roll in what was an epic cat fight for the wooden spoon in Punter Bowl a few months ago. Are these girls ready to Roar into the lead in this Season or will they be out with the tide?

The New Zoal All Hacks - Steel Division
Coach - Ben Ryan (ScewbylikeAsir)
Type - Corporation (29ers)
Another new coach in the Steel division could make for some great action this season. The flexibity of the Corporation team will grant a helpful introduction into league play, but can they build on it to take top spots or will they just be another hack?

I.C.E. Devils - Steel Division
Coach - Simon Blakemore (Simon)
Type - Forge Fathers
A Veteran of the Outpost League. Mr Blakemore has returned for a 3rd season with a new team. Forge Fathers seem to be back on the rise again after suffering during Seasons 1 and 2. Can Simon breathe new life into the little men or will the new rookies in his division put a chill on their success?

The Law - Iron Division
Coach - Chris Blackburn (chrisbburn)
Type - Forge Fathers
Back with Forge Fathers, although definatly not the same team he lost everything with in Season 1. The Law are a force to be reckoned with especially in a division of rivals like the Iron Division. Will these self proclaimed upholders of justice show their bitter rivals the error of their ways or will in be a night in the can for The Law?

Laniidae Shrikes - Iron Division
Coach - Chris Daubney (I AM MOGAR!)
Type - Corporation (Sirens)
After two seasons coaching the Beasts to become the fan favorites and putting plenty of strikers in the ICU. Coach Daubney has hung up his Beasting gloves in favor of the pesky Sirens play style. Will this change allow him to finally win a league instead?

Tribbiani CHUMS - Iron Division
Coach - James Taylor (jimmi)
Type - Zees
After a Landslide win with The Tuscan Swordfish in Season 2 and a overall win at Punterbowl with the Mighty Dorks, seems like Coach Jimmi is looking for a new challenge and they come in form of a troupe of cloned mini monkeys. Sure to bring chaos and confusion but can this veteran clone another win or will he slip on a banana skin?

Osaka Squids - Copper Division
Coach - Will Hopkins (Jaggedlilwill)
Type - Nameless
Another Veteran coach returning with a new season 3 team. Will has played in all the Outpost events and has plenty of experience winning with different teams and now he is trying his hand at the Nameless - A team that has been mentioned [perhaps somewhat prematurely - ed] as the Judwan of season 3 either way they look a very powerful team can Will make them winners or just damp squid?

Blueskin Krumpers - Copper Division
Coach - Daniel Haslem (vorpalhit)
Type - Marauders
Back for another season after taking the plunge with a Forge Father team in season 2 where he racked up some impressive stats for the then lost cause Forge Fathers including breaking the Tuscan Swordfish in a landslide victory. Dan is back for more with another Season 1 team and the only Marauders team in the league which puts them in great posistion for the bloodiest team this time round, or will they get themselves krimped?

Teraton Avalanches - Copper Division
Coach - Tom Silcock (Tom_Uk)
Type - Teraton
Our final team and another veteran member of the outpost league. Tom is backing the Teratons this season and by all acoounts in pre season games they are a force to worry about. They hit like giant teleporting turtles that are angry, very angry. You're going to see some bloody games in the Copper division and I think Turtles might come out on top unless someone can give them a serious shredding.

And so thats the line up, The league begins on Monday who is going to get first blood/strike/win?

Stay tuned to the Punter.

Forge Fathers Tactics

Now I don’t play with Forge Fathers but I've played against them plenty of times. I know their weaknesses and I know how to exploit them. In this guide I shall highlight these flaws as well as their strengths and show you how to turn them to your advantage.

Everyone knows that Forge Fathers are uncannily strong. With their 3+ strength the Forge Father (FF) Jacks can hit as hard as the guards from other teams and the 4+ skill means that they are pretty good at handling the ball as well. What is better is the fact that The Guards have the ‘Steady’ skill. This means that they are pretty hard to get rid of but more importantly essential for the FF who struggle to stand up due to their 5+ speed.

The biggest challenge when playing with FF is that unlike their stereotype, they are one of the most fragile teams in the game. They are speed 5 so their strikers can only dodge on a 5 or a 6 and with the 5+ armour it makes them one of the most delicate players in the game. Furthermore, if their guards and jacks are slammed from behind they not only cannot deliver one of their strength 3+ slambacks, but they are also dodging on 5+.  The other main weakness is their low movement of 4. Combined with speed 5, which means that you are more likely to fail and ‘Dash’ or ‘Evade’ tests, it leaves the FF lacking in mobility.

A solid passing and scoring game is generally the best overall tactic to use. The best games I've played against are where the FF are used like an American Football team; The Guards keep the opponent on the defensive while the vulnerable Strikers are used in their own half to pick up the ball and pass to the Jacks (or receivers) who do the actual scoring. When using this tactic keep in mind their lack of mobility, low movement and limited passing distance. Stick to scoring 1 or 2 pointers while your guards take care of your opponent’s strikers/jacks and play a game of attrition rather than going for a landslide like the more agile teams.

During league play is where the FF can really shine.  Similar to Orx, your Guards and Jacks with gain experience more quickly by injuring players rather than scoring. Beefing your players up can lead them to be an immovable behemoth of a guard or a tough receiver jack. Using the season 2 advancements, the best things to go for are ‘360 degree vision’ or ‘Alert’ as soon as possible so they can use their 3+ strength from all sides.

The next things to get for your Guards are ‘Can’t feel a thing’ and ‘Keeper’.  A combination of these skills will leave your guard an immovable object.

For your Jacks I’d recommend gunning for skill 3+. This will help with catching the ball and scoring, perfect for the receiver tactic. Once you've got ‘Alert’/’360 ‘and 3+ skill id further help them with ‘Safe pair of hands’. This combination will lead your jacks to be star players in your line up.

It takes more effort than it’s worth to make strikers more durable, they tend to gain experience slowly and die quickly. So it’s best to leave them protected in your half, passing the ball. Getting skill 3+ will help if you do manage to level up.

In conclusion, Forge Fathers are best when slamming and passing the ball. You can disguise their weaknesses in league play, keeping your fragile strikers back, keeping in passing distance and by attempting as few speed tests as possible.

Tell me I'm wrong in the comments below!!

-Mr Chris "Killika Beasts" Daubney-